Wallace: You had said that if you were going
to release the counter-report, it was going
to focus on obstruction.
Here’s what the president had to say about
that after the Mueller report was released.
Trump: They’re having a good day.
I’m having a good day, too.
It was called no collusion, no obstruction.
Wallace: But Mayor, that’s not true.
The Mueller report makes it clear, especially
on the issue of collusion—
Wallace: Obstruction, rather, that he’s
leaving it to Congress.
And I want to pick it up on the report.
“The conclusion that Congress may apply
the obstruction laws to the president’s
corrupt exercise of the powers of office accords
with our constitutional system of checks and
balances and the principle that no person
is above the law.”
So Mueller invites Congress to look into this
and the president, in terms of Congress, hasn’t
been exonerated at all on the issue of obstruction.
Giuliani: Well you never get exonerated.
He demonstrated in the case of Comey, that
he could fire someone and not interfere in
the investigation because immediately it was
taken up by someone else.
He told Lester Holt that he realized—
Wallace: No sir.
I’m not asking about Comey, I’m asking
Giuliani: But I’m pointing out with his
prior conduct, he removed Comey and he said,
“I realize it’ll lengthen the investigation.”
And now, if he had fired Mueller, he would
have expected someone else came and took it
The guy had conflicts of interests.
The guy hired a highly partisan, biased—
Wallace: It also had come up—I understand
you’re trying to make the case but we do
have limited time here.
Giuliani: I’m not trying to make the case,
I’m trying to tell you there’s an alternative
Wallace: There’s another alternative explanation
that Mueller makes.
And Mueller’s explanation is that two days
earlier, the report has come out in the paper,
and now Mueller is investigating him for obstruction
And for the first time in this investigation,
for the first time the president directly
is a target of the investigation.
Giuliani: Chris, what you’re doing is, you’re
taking the Mueller report, which is a prosecutor’s
version of what happened.
You’re giving it full credit.
And you’re not giving me a chance to explain
the other side, which is very, very strong,
and was left out by the prosecutor.
Wallace: One of your arguments has been that
the obstruction of justice can’t have happened
because there was no underlying crime.
That’s what you say.
You say that he was being framed and he was
Let’s look at what you said, sir.
Put it up on the screen.
Giuliani: It’s kind of ridiculous to go
after a man for obstruction when he was falsely
accused, he was defending himself, his intent
in each one of these situations, all 10 of
them is easily explained as an intent to not
Wallace: The special counsel says that what
you just said is not true.
Volume 2, page 157, “Obstruction of justice
can be motivated by a desire to protect non-criminal
personal interests, to protect against investigations
where underlying criminal liability falls
into a gray area, or to avoid personal embarrassment.”
Mueller says the injury to the justice system
is just as great, it doesn’t matter if there
was an underlying crime, it’s still obstruction.
Giuliani: Well when did Mueller become God?
Mueller says the injury to the justice system
is just as great– there was no injury by
We’re talking about an inchoate crime.
We’re talking about something that didn’t
There was no obstruction.
Nothing was denied him.
Nobody crushed cell phones like Hillary did.
Nobody deleted 33,000 emails like Hillary’s
And nobody bleached a server like Hillary
There was no obstruction.
They don’t point to a single obstruction
in their investigation.
I’ll tell you what, I don’t see how president
Hillary survives this.
Honestly, if it weren’t for blaming to Hillary
Clinton for everything Trump does, what would
Republicans talk about?
Their entire PR strategy is to pivot to a
woman who has not held public office in almost
But even without Hillary, Giuliani’s defenses
are tenuous at best.
He claims that Trump couldn’t have obstructed
justice because he wasn’t looking to obstruct
the investigation, he was simply acting in
response to the vicious Democrats’ false
But Giuliani is purposefully conflating motive
and intent, of which the difference is really
He says in all 10 instances, Trump’s intent
is not to get framed, which is untrue.
His MOTIVE may have been not to get framed
or that he felt he was acting in response
to an unfair probe, but his INTENT was to
stop this investigation into HIM from moving
forward or, otherwise put, to obstruct justice.
And guess what—motive is irrelevant and
the intent is what matters.
Giuliani either doesn’t know the difference
and should probably be disbarred.
Or, more likely, he does and he’s banking
on the fact that everyone else doesn’t.
But Giuliani goes on to say that of course
Trump firing James Comey wasn’t obstruction
because he knew the investigation would be
taken up by someone else, which ended up being
And so of course Trump wasn’t obstructing
by trying to fire Mueller because, like before,
he knew someone else would take up the investigation
There are… so many things wrong with that.
First of all, firing James Comey in and of
itself WAS an instance of obstruction.
Doing it twice doesn’t negate that; it makes
it TWO instances of obstruction.
And second, why do you think Trump would constantly
replace the person investigating him?
Is he truly looking for a neutral arbiter?
Of course not.
Robert Mueller IS a registered Republican.
He was appointed by Rod Rosenstein, who TRUMP
himself appointed as Deputy Attorney General.
Trump was looking for a lackey, just like
literally everyone else he surrounds himself
with, and he would have kept going until he
He’d have appointed Don Jr. if he could,
so let’s not pretend that the guy was interested
a nonpartisan examination of the facts.
And third, just like Chris Wallace mentions,
two days before Trump tried to have Don McGahn
remove Mueller, it was revealed that Trump
was a target of Mueller’s probe.
That’s why he wanted him removed.
To pretend otherwise is nothing more than
very poorly-written political theater.
And finally, Giuliani’s most fragile argument,
that Trump didn’t obstruct justice because
he didn’t follow through with firing Mueller.
But a) that wasn’t by his own doing.
He did order Don McGahn to remove Mueller
on TWO occasions; it was only because McGahn
threatened to resign that Trump didn’t follow
If I offer to pay a guy to kill someone else
and they refuse, that’s not something I’m
going to walk into a police station bragging
And b) there IS something called “endeavoring
This too, is what Giuliani referred to as
an inchoate crime (which is basically defined
as an attempt to commit a crime), but endeavoring
to obstruct IS STILL PROSECUTABLE.
In fact, that EXACT charge was Included in
his articles of impeachment, as “interfering
or endeavoring to interfere with the conduct
of investigations” by the DOJ, the FBI,
the special prosecutor, and Congress.
So Rudy will continue to do the morning talk
show circuits spouting out flimsy defenses
of Trump, but the fact is that the president
is gonna need some kind of miracle to protect
him from the facts laid out in the Mueller
report—and Rudy Giuliani is not it.